最初由 旁观者不清 发布：
Dear Winterski:
Although I agreed with many of your previous comments, here I just wanted to clarify one point:
华谘处 is a community services organization serving the general public that is completely different from CAPC which is a membership organization that only serves its memberships (in principle at least). 华谘处 probably started as a membership oreganization and through the past 37 or 38 years it evolved into the current form. CPAC is probably trying to do so but not yet there. Therefore, they are two different types of organizations in nature and we can not compare them in the same way. All other cummunity services organizations, run by Chinese or non-Chinese, operate quite similar if they receive government funding and they all have full-time, part-time employees getting paid (some probably over $100,00), although these organizations all have volunteers as well.
However, we MUST admit that within these organizations, there were or are more volunteers from Hong Kong and Taiwan than those from Mainland. I am not trying to put dowm people from Mainland because I am from Mainland too, but the reality is that in Hong Kong there has long been the culture of being a volunteer and many people have been a volunteer.
花子处的事情,可以另外在议论. 我接触过那里的人或者家伙, 没有感觉到值10万年薪的帮助和价值. 我想, 可能10万年薪的是那个什末"处长"或者自封的"总裁"吧!~ 如果是, 那末它也就是个骗钱赚全家吃喝又想名利双收的家伙.
--------对于这些机构, 我的逻辑是(也是这里几位仁兄谈到的):如果说自己是服务大众的"雷锋",那末就不要当婊子立牌坊!!!
最初由 旁观者不清 发布：
Good night Guys. We have shifted quite a lot from the original topic and if we continue our discussion others may think we are crazy. Let's sleep and go back to work tomorrow (or this morning).
Nite, Wish our discussion would make useful for the members of the professional to become a professional soon ..... not by joing CPAC, but work hard towards your goal everyday.
Canada is not for loser.
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旁观者不清
2006-02-07 01:41
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Good night Guys. We have shifted quite a lot from the original topic and if we continue our discussion others may think we are crazy. Let's sleep and go back to work tomorrow (or this morning).
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winterski
2006-02-07 01:39
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最初由 旁观者不清 发布：
You are probably making a mistake - In terms of hiring with respect to qualification, it is not up to the government but up to the employers who hire. Even the government says the new immigrants are qualified and issues them a certificate or what so ever, it is still up to the employers on who they will hire. In hiring, the employers pay more attention to skills and real ability than your so called qualification (certificates, etc.).
With respect to the original definition on "professional", you may find it from a real, classic academic dictionary or publications of the real "professional" organizations. I agree with you nowadays the word "professional" means the more general, broad term.
I agree with employers that they should hire people who could help their business. Where you get your degree does matter. So as an UOT graduate, you probably have better chances finding jobs.
So we need to face it. Get the skills employers want, because now you are in Canada, you want to live here, want to work here, but not to insist you are still professional (probably way back in China)
Reality is reality, face it, get what you need to develop your career path. You won't be able to become a Canadian professional when you join CPAC
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旁观者不清
2006-02-07 01:35
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最初由 多伦多是我家 发布：
I don't know where your definition for "professionals" comes from. But it is for sure that Monnex doesn't use origianl different definition for its business, as most of Seneca Alummni can only be included in "professional training and skills" person. Lots of Chinese new immigrants belong to the original definition group and most of them have a certain "professinal" training and skills. CPAC members are more qualified to "professionals" than the Alummni of Seneca college.
How to make foreign qualification and licenses useful in Canada is a big issue for Canadian Government. Lots of immigrants feel unfair that Canadian goverment admit their qualification and degrees when it issues their immigrantion visa, but refuses to admit those when they came to Canada.
You are probably making a mistake - In terms of hiring with respect to qualification, it is not up to the government but up to the employers who hire. Even the government says the new immigrants are qualified and issues them a certificate or what so ever, it is still up to the employers on who they will hire. In hiring, the employers pay more attention to skills and real ability than your so called qualification (certificates, etc.).
With respect to the original definition on "professional", you may find it from a real, classic academic dictionary or publications of the real "professional" organizations. I agree with you nowadays the word "professional" means the more general, broad term.
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winterski
2006-02-07 01:34
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最初由 多伦多是我家 发布：
I don't know where your definition for "professionals" comes from. But it is for sure that Monnex doesn't use origianl different definition for its business, as most of Seneca Alummni can only be included in "professional training and skills" person. Lots of Chinese new immigrants belong to the original definition group and most of them have a certain "professinal" training and skills. CPAC members are more qualified to "professionals" than the Alummni of Seneca college.
How to make foreign qualification and licenses useful in Canada is a big issue for Canadian Government. Lots of immigrants feel unfair that Canadian goverment admit their qualification and degrees when it issues their immigrantion visa, but refuses to admit those when they came to Canada.
I still don't agree with you to see CPAC members are more qualified to professional than the Alumni of Seneca College.
One thing new immigrates faces are English, and that's the most important skills than any others. We always say the policy with immigration is not fair to transfer their degrees and qualification, but in fact, only engineering and medical professional faces those barriers. Most of us, coming from computer background or accounting, finance can use our degree and qualifacation with only one barrier --- English.
So I am sorry I can't agree with you about Seneca college Alumni is not qualified to professional rather than CPAC members. In fact, their probably only one advantage --- English is way more qualified than any other things.
It is in Canada, so follow their rules.
As a man from China, when you come here, remember one thing that --- without English, you probably won't be professional since English is your basic skills.
Monnex qualifes groups who has low claim rating, CPAC doesn't qualify, therefore, whatever about professoinal doesn't matter.
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多伦多是我家
2006-02-07 01:31
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最初由 旁观者不清 发布：
You are right on the component of CPAC, but Monnex did not understand CPAC so well at the beginning and was MISLED by its name, which is bigger than the reality. Do you know how many CPAC members are actually doing real "professional jobs" or by the original "professional" definition are "Professionals" (such as P.Eng., MD, DDS, etc.)?
Most CPAC members did real "professional jobs" in China. When they came to Canada, lots of them don't at beginning, but more and more find professional job later. How many Alummni of Seneca College are doing as P.Eng., MD, DDS, Etc?
But Alummni of Seneca College are Monnex Group!
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多伦多是我家
2006-02-07 01:26
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最初由 旁观者不清 发布：
With respect to "professionals", there are two meanings in Canada: One is the original definition that covers only 9 professions (Medical Doctor, Dentist, Lawyer, Professional Engineer, Accountant (Licensed), Nurse, Teacher (Licensed), etc.); and the broad meaning that someone has a certain "professional" training and skills.
I don't know where your definition for "professionals" comes from. But it is for sure that Monnex doesn't use origianl different definition for its business, as most of Seneca Alummni can only be included in "professional training and skills" person. Lots of Chinese new immigrants belong to the original definition group and most of them have a certain "professinal" training and skills. CPAC members are more qualified to "professionals" than the Alummni of Seneca college.
How to make foreign qualification and licenses useful in Canada is a big issue for Canadian Government. Lots of immigrants feel unfair that Canadian goverment admit their qualification and degrees when it issues their immigrantion visa, but refuses to admit those when they came to Canada.
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旁观者不清
2006-02-07 01:19
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最初由 多伦多是我家 发布：
Labor工还更好找呢！当地的labor工工会能成为Moneex的group吗？
Seneca Alumni是不收钱， 我的学校也不收钱，可是我要化几年去学习，几年的学费多数钱？几年的时间多数钱？
CPAC可能不符合Monnex现在的target，但是这并不代表CPAC有什么错，只能说当时Monnex的选择group的机制和方法有问题，还是Monnex本身的问题，CPAC从头到尾会员成分没有什么变化。
You are right on the component of CPAC, but Monnex did not understand CPAC so well at the beginning and was MISLED by its name, which is bigger than the reality. Do you know how many CPAC members are actually doing real "professional jobs" or by the original "professional" definition are "Professionals" (such as P.Eng., MD, DDS, etc.)?
最初由 winterski 发布：
学历是真的,只不过和Monnex所target的专业人士group有区别. 失去了低险种人拿低保的标准和规则.
别拿国内的眼光看这里的大专,entry-level job大专比大学学历好找.
专业人士协会入会费$100, Seneca Alumni qualifation $0 for seneca graduate
Another point: Why insurance companies charge less for "professionals"? Because they thought "professionals" are normally successful, they usually have a family and therefore they should be more responsible and careful in driving, thus reducing the chance of having accidents. They also base on the assumption that these "professionals" grew up in North America so that they might start driving at 16, and be familiar with the conditions here. They did not expect that the majority of the CPAC membership is new immigrants who might be the same in quality as the NA professionals, but indeed they lack of NA driving experience and were not used to the weather conditions. As the result it lad to a much higher claim rate than the average.
Just to be fair, CAPC probably did not prupusely cheat but CPAC did take advantage of Monnex' unfamiliarity with the real situation of the CPAC memebership. Once Monnex realized that, for sure they had to change.
最初由 多伦多是我家 发布：
我想在这里套用论坛里另一位的发言“中国新移民基本上都符合专业人士的标准”。因为我们移民基本上都是大学本科或以上毕业的，我的一个新移民朋友几个月前申请CPAC会员时，还要求带上他的学历证书。我知道Seneca College的校友会也是Monnex的group，而Seneca只是一个大专，多数专业没有学位，是吗？
新移民claim rate高，主要原因是驾驶技术不高（很多人30多岁还没有开过车），对加拿大道路不熟悉和对这里的气候不适应，和他们是否是专业人士的资格无关。如果一个家庭中没有一个大学本科毕业的，他们是无法成为技术移民的，这一点你我都很清楚。加拿大政府是承认中国的学历的，所以他们是当之无愧的专业人士。这里绝对没有Cheating的成分！
新移民claim rate高，主要原因是驾驶技术不高（很多人30多岁还没有开过车），对加拿大道路不熟悉和对这里的气候不适应，和他们是否是专业人士的资格无关 - This is NOT what the insurance would consider - If your group's claim is high, they either cut you out or increae the rate for the entire group.
With respect to "professionals", there are two meanings in Canada: One is the original definition that covers only 9 professions (Medical Doctor, Dentist, Lawyer, Professional Engineer, Accountant (Licensed), Nurse, Teacher (Licensed), etc.); and the broad meaning that someone has a certain "professional" training and skills.
In indeed at the right beginning Monnex did not realize that CAPC's members were mainly new immigrants so that they signed this deal - They regreted that so much but could not get out of the deal, so that they used / are using the trick of posing a waiting period.
Business is business - The insurance company did what they need to do as a company. CPAC also got what it wanted - Attracting members. But once CPAC accumulated its fortune or resources, it should improve its services to its members.
Just my 2 cents...
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winterski
2006-02-07 00:56
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最初由 旁观者不清 发布：
Dear Winterski:
Although I agreed with many of your previous comments, here I just wanted to clarify one point:
华谘处 is a community services organization serving the general public that is completely different from CAPC which is a membership organization that only serves its memberships (in principle at least). 华谘处 probably started as a membership oreganization and through the past 37 or 38 years it evolved into the current form. CPAC is probably trying to do so but not yet there. Therefore, they are two different types of organizations in nature and we can not compare them in the same way. All other cummunity services organizations, run by Chinese or non-Chinese, operate quite similar if they receive government funding and they all have full-time, part-time employees getting paid (some probably over $100,00), although these organizations all have volunteers as well.
However, we MUST admit that within these organizations, there were or are more volunteers from Hong Kong and Taiwan than those from Mainland. I am not trying to put dowm people from Mainland because I am from Mainland too, but the reality is that in Hong Kong there has long been the culture of being a volunteer and many people have been a volunteer.
Thank you for the information 🙂 I guess culture does influence a lot about volunteer's motivation and behaviour in the non-profit organization. I wish one day, we could really see some community leaders from mainland who is devoted to the service. Then if they get over $100,000, we would say he worths that.
最初由 winterski 发布：
我想你想说不如那些华人吧,呵呵.对不起,你不了解我,所以你无权评论我. 我在华人机构里服务过,义务的.如果你有,继续发表对我个人的评论.
西人的机构怎么了? 免费提供工作辅导的非盈利性机构, 图书馆经常组织帮助新移民的活动.我知道阿拉伯有个组织搞活动都是免费的,他们告诉会员因为是政府funding, 而我的记忆中好象前几个月华谘处, 专业人士协会搞了一个去muskoka的活动,只是一个车费,会员$20,非会员$25. 呵呵,去muskoka 150公里,你自己算吧..一个车载48人
就连人家盈利的中介都知道找工作不容易, 不从你这里提前收钱.我曾经遇到过这样的事情, 让我触动很大. 大家都知道中国中介只为赚钱,甚至很多时候把一个根本不合适这份工作的你介绍给雇主,为什么,要赚你的钱. 看着满眼labor的中国中介,我决定找西人中介, 我询问每一个中介,是否可以为我找工作,我付给他们钱, 令人吃惊的没有一家这样做,并奉劝我,找工作找自己合适的, 本来也不容易,别要花太多钱. 他们只会从我的雇主收钱
西人机构怎么了? 无可厚非,他们在part time, contact工作是赚你的工资(扣除后远远高于中国中介给的工资), 不过如果是full time,他们就和你的公司收钱了.有人说你的annual salary会降低,经过我个人的经历,这种说法是不正确的,公司给你的钱都是按照你的经验学历有个标准.
如果你没在华人机构里得到服务就别乱说话,你以为里面的都是义工吗? 华谘处的人都是5,6万的年薪,他们配吗?
你还感谢谁呢? 到底谁为华人站出来了? 还是装做为华人站出来,其实是为自己站出来呢?
Dear Winterski:
Although I agreed with many of your previous comments, here I just wanted to clarify one point:
华谘处 is a community services organization serving the general public that is completely different from CAPC which is a membership organization that only serves its memberships (in principle at least). 华谘处 probably started as a membership oreganization and through the past 37 or 38 years it evolved into the current form. CPAC is probably trying to do so but not yet there. Therefore, they are two different types of organizations in nature and we can not compare them in the same way. All other cummunity services organizations, run by Chinese or non-Chinese, operate quite similar if they receive government funding and they all have full-time, part-time employees getting paid (some probably over $100,00), although these organizations all have volunteers as well.
However, we MUST admit that within these organizations, there were or are more volunteers from Hong Kong and Taiwan than those from Mainland. I am not trying to put dowm people from Mainland because I am from Mainland too, but the reality is that in Hong Kong there has long been the culture of being a volunteer and many people have been a volunteer.
最初由 多伦多是我家 发布：
部分同意你的观点，因为你毕竟是保险专业人士。
但是CPAC的在入会资格方面的模糊，恰恰是一个问题的两面性。我有几个新移民来的朋友，如果不是加入CPAC，保险要每年高$1700, ($4000 vs $2300), 他们就是要一个像CPAC这样一个入会相对容易的协会，以解他们的燃眉之急！试想，要他们必需去成为一个加拿大学校的Alumni，或者CGA会员，甚至品酒协会的一年等等期，都是太不方便。他们就是需要CPAC的membership，以求尽快买到便宜的保险。
他们如果像你一样了解了Monnex接纳协会会员的性质，不应该抱怨CPAC，因为他们本身可能就是13% claim 中的人，属于这个群体的人，就不要抱怨自己了，如果自己是好的司机，等到几年后换到别的group或保险公司去就得了。
Yes, agree - 他们如果像你一样了解了Monnex接纳协会会员的性质，不应该抱怨CPAC，因为他们本身可能就是13% claim 中的人，属于这个群体的人，就不要抱怨自己了，如果自己是好的司机，等到几年后换到别的group或保险公司去就得了。 If one is a CPAC member and got what you wanted (i.e. joining CPAC to get cheaper rate), then so not complain. By the way, $100 for life time membership is not too expensive. If you join any other real professional organization in Canada, the membership would be at lease $100 per year. The question is whether CPAC provides compatible services to its membership and fullfils their needs.
The way CPAC is hiring an ED is probably for improving it member services and other activities (I hope). However, if they only pay $50K a year, it will not get a "professional" who knows how to run such an organization "professionally".
赵平波：我为曲涛先生说几句公道话