最初由 51北山 发布:
加拿大应该做的是:立即取消此人的加拿大国籍。
而不是去找中国的麻烦。。。
no way, as long as he is holding canadian passport, whether his citizenship is valid or not is not in the jurisdiction of chinese. china has a long list of bad human records and always use trade as a political card. as china is having huge trade surplus with canada, if we cut those trade ties, some dollar stores which flooded with cheap, low quality chinese goods might be forced to close, but I see canada's trade dificit with china might actually decrease, if US is doing the same thing, the rising of china will remain just a dream forever.
看来中国政府是有理由的:
玉江山在加拿大以伪造的身份获得难民和公民身份,因此中国政府认为:玉江山本人没有获得加拿大国籍。
最初由 Sedona 发布:
International Law and Politics
I learned more information from today's newspaper. It is difficult for us to debate because it seems nobody knows all the facts.
While everyone argues whether his Canadian citizenship will make a difference, let's talk 2 questions:
1. Does China have jurisidiction?
This has nothing to do with his citizenship. For example, if I go to Mexico and have a one night stand on consensus with a Mexican girl but thereafter she accuses of me raping her, I will be arrested and charged by the Mexican government. My Canadian citizenship will not affect Mexican government's jurisdiction.
If this guy has committed a crime in China, of course the Chinese government will have jurisdiction, regardless of his identity.
The newspaper this morning says he escaped from a Chinese jail and there was a bench warrant on him. If this is true, China must have jurisdiction.
2. Is he entitled to Canadian consulate service?
His citizenship will play a role. The Canadian laws allow him dual citizenship, so he is both a Chinese and a Canadian. The Chinese laws don't because this guy received his refugee status by another identity/name.
This is highly controversial, but whenever there is a clash between sole citizenship and dual citizenship, there is allowance for the consulate staff to offer services. In my humble opinion, this guy is entitled to consulate services including clothes, food and legal representation, which will not affect the jurisdiction.
Using Mexico as an example, the local consulate staff will visit me and ask what I need. That's it; not too much they can do.
There is the law. In politics, it is another ball game.
The Hague Convention requires that the consulate office be served and notifie if a citzen of a third country is involved in a court matter. I know for a fact through my work that CBSA selectively notify the Chinese consulate office in Toronto, depending on the case. The Hague Convention requires the CBSA to serve and notify the Chinese consulate on all refugee claims. (CBSA does notify the Korean consulate all cases, which reflects the double standard, which is a politcal agenda).
In a nutshell, both the Chinese and the Canadian governments are guilty of not following the international laws.
They are doing a political game, not a legal one.
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Sedona
2007-02-10 14:15
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A few words of disappointment about our no brainer prime minster Steven Harper.
He threatens China with our trade with them. No high school graduates will make such a mistake.
Ever since I moved to Canada, we have had international conflicts with Denmark (over the waterways in the Arctic), Spain (over cod fish), with Mexico (over Canadians' safety and free trade) and with USA (too many to list). If we threaten to cut off the trade relationship with these countries, image what will happen to Canada. International conflicts happen everyday but no mature leaders of any country will threaten it will international trade. It doesn't happen between China and Japan, for example.
Also, such a strategy is premature, rough, unskillful and intrusive. If China ignores such a threat, what is the next card Harper is going to use? Terminate the relationship with China? The international trade is the last few cards, not the first one.
If I give the Harper government my vote next time, I am the no brainer.
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Sedona
2007-02-10 14:09
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I learned more information from today's newspaper. It is difficult for us to debate because it seems nobody knows all the facts.
While everyone argues whether his Canadian citizenship will make a difference, let's talk 2 questions:
1. Does China have jurisidiction?
This has nothing to do with his citizenship. For example, if I go to Mexico and have a one night stand on consensus with a Mexican girl but thereafter she accuses of me raping her, I will be arrested and charged by the Mexican government. My Canadian citizenship will not affect Mexican government's jurisdiction.
If this guy has committed a crime in China, of course the Chinese government will have jurisdiction, regardless of his identity.
The newspaper this morning says he escaped from a Chinese jail and there was a bench warrant on him. If this is true, China must have jurisdiction.
2. Is he entitled to Canadian consulate service?
His citizenship will play a role. The Canadian laws allow him dual citizenship, so he is both a Chinese and a Canadian. The Chinese laws don't because this guy received his refugee status by another identity/name.
This is highly controversial, but whenever there is a clash between sole citizenship and dual citizenship, there is allowance for the consulate staff to offer services. In my humble opinion, this guy is entitled to consulate services including clothes, food and legal representation, which will not affect the jurisdiction.
Using Mexico as an example, the local consulate staff will visit me and ask what I need. That's it; not too much they can do.
There is the law. In politics, it is another ball game.
The Hague Convention requires that the consulate office be served and notifie if a citzen of a third country is involved in a court matter. I know for a fact through my work that CBSA selectively notify the Chinese consulate office in Toronto, depending on the case. The Hague Convention requires the CBSA to serve and notify the Chinese consulate on all refugee claims. (CBSA does notify the Korean consulate all cases, which reflects the double standard, which is a politcal agenda).
In a nutshell, both the Chinese and the Canadian governments are guilty of not following the international laws.
They are doing a political game, not a legal one.
最初由 51北山 发布:
这里面有个问题:加拿大为什么给予一个被国际通缉的有恐怖分子嫌疑的人加拿大国籍?
这符合加拿大入籍的法律吗?
如果不符合,此人的加拿大国籍有效吗?
Your question is easier, so let me answer.
A criminal record may not be a necessary condition for immigration and citizenship. Canada will compare apples with apples. Some criminal records in other countries may not be a barrier at all. There are too many different scenarios, so I won't list them all here.
In refugee claim, a criminal record overseas sometimes may become an evidence to support the claim. The classic example is the students of June 4. Most of them have gone to USA, Canada, Australia and European countries. Their criminal records were evidence that a corrpt government persecuted and tortured them.
In this case, we don't know the details, so it is difficult to comment. It seems this guy got the refugee status by false pretendence, i.e. using another name and identity. However, none of us know the specifics.
最初由 陆海 发布:
This is a serious issue.
根据这篇报道,中国外交部部长助理何亚非说:“玉先生有自己的中文名字,而你们所说的名字是他在非法离开中国、进入加拿大以后才取的。”这与玉江山或塞利尔是哪国公民或其他任何事都没有关系。一个人不管他用什么名字,他还是那个人。就象李连杰叫Jet Li,他还是李连杰一样。
当然不一样!
玉江山,中国新疆人,东突骨干,被通缉分子。塞利尔,加拿大公民。中国并没有抓塞利尔,抓的是前者,况且是引渡回来的。塞利尔?中国不认识。
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WTTO
2007-02-10 12:52
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最初由 陆海 发布:
This is a serious issue.
就目前看到的消息,这是一个全部是涉及法律根本的问题。不管这玉江山或塞利尔是干什么的、他有多么严重地触犯什么法律,现在中加争拗的关键是他是哪国公民。
这原本看起来应该是一个很清晰的定义。中华人民共和国国籍法第九条:“定居外国的中国公民,自愿加入或取得外国国籍的,即自动丧失中国国籍。”玉江山或塞利尔是取得加拿大国籍的,因此他应被视为自动丧失中国国籍,为何中国外交部发言人仍宣称他是中国公民?从OMNI NEWS上听到中国外交部发言人的讲话,她所说的也是这几句话“玉山江是中国公民,《中加领事协定》不适用于此案。中国有关部门目前正依法对此案进行审理。”她并没有给出有效的法律论证那玉江山或塞利尔为何不是加拿大公民而是中国公民。
根据这篇报道,中国外交部部长助理何亚非说:“玉先生有自己的中文名字,而你们所说的名字是他在非法离开中国、进入加拿大以后才取的。”这与玉江山或塞利尔是哪国公民或其他任何事都没有关系。一个人不管他用什么名字,他还是那个人。就象李连杰叫Jet Li,他还是李连杰一样。
何亚非表示,中国在玉山江逃离中国后,就通过国际刑警发出红色通缉令,虽然他改换姓名,在加拿大取得了难民身份,但终归还是要受到法律审判。这与玉江山或塞利尔是否加国公民仍然没有关系。只要加国给予他加国公民身份并且没有剥夺,那么他就有加国国籍。而根据中国国籍法,只要他定居国外并取得外国国籍,他就不再拥有中国国籍、即,他就不再是中国公民。中国国籍法并没有说被发出红色通缉令的人或改换姓名或通过先取得难民再取得外国国籍的人仍保留中国国籍。
当然,从法理上来说,一国政府无权取消另一国政府发出的国籍或公民身份。否则中国可以在哈珀什么时候访问中国时宣布取消哈珀的加拿大国籍。
这里原不存在双重国籍的问题。根据有关中加协议,如果一个有加拿大国籍的人以合法中国护照进入中国,那么在中国会被视为中国公民,但玉江山或塞利尔并没有用中国护照进入中国,他是在乌兹别克被引渡到中国。从中看不到任何在法律上支持中国外交部发言人宣称他是中国公民的证据。
不管玉江山或塞利尔是多么坏、是干了什么违法勾当,法律必须是法律,法律必须是严肃的,不能因为什么方法方便而放弃法律的严肃性,否则法律依然只是纸上空话。如果玉江山或塞利尔是哪国公民都不能按法律来做,那么人们如何能够相信“中国有关部门目前正依法对此案进行审理”这“依法”两字。
正是从法律这一基本原则出发,我们可以预计加国不管是执政党还是反对党或在野党都会强烈反对中国政府否认玉江山或塞利尔加国公民身份的主张。加国人也许很害怕和反对恐怖分子,但他们更害怕是对法律的不尊重。
我个人认为,中国应允许玉江山获得加国的领事服务,其实这并不影响对他的审判,因为从报道来看,庭审允许旁听,就说明这审判是透明的,因此中国在乌鲁木齐判一个加国公民和一个中国公民对审判结果来说又有什么区别呢?我能看到的区别是刑满获释以后(如果有那一天),留在中国和驱逐出境的区别。
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hitomi
2007-02-10 12:36
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最初由 陆海 发布:
This is a serious issue.
不管玉江山或塞利尔是多么坏、是干了什么违法勾当,法律必须是法律,法律必须是严肃的,不能因为什么方法方便而放弃法律的严肃性,否则法律依然只是纸上空话。如果玉江山或塞利尔是哪国公民都不能按法律来做,那么人们如何能够相信“中国有关部门目前正依法对此案进行审理”这“依法”两字。
幼稚之说!
玉江山作为中国公民犯罪在前,被通缉后改头换面入加籍在后。中国的依法,依的是中国之法律,加国一再对犯罪分子包庇,中国公民赖昌星,也没见送回中国呀。所以,中加之间并没有同一的法律可言,——或者说对所谓国际公法解读不同,只有敌对的政治态度。
只要玉江山是恐怖分子,依中国法律,该杀就杀,不该杀判他个20年,千万不能轻易放虎归加,加拿大可是中国罪犯的天堂,颠覆中国的力量都聚集在这里呢。
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小川的爹
2007-02-10 12:20
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与普通民众一样的“人权”。
如果,这位玉人渣,是一位遵纪守法的公民,没有参与杀人、放火、爆炸等犯罪事实的话,我是非常支持你的这些观点的。
但他曾经在中国犯下一系列的罪行,是中国全球通缉的恐怖罪犯,你还要用一个定义普通守法国民的国籍法第九条来搪塞,那就是你的脑子进水了。
加拿大的做法,就是要否认这个人渣的一切罪行,只是因为是加拿大的“难民”,就要得到加拿大的庇护!美国在关塔纳摩关押了那么多阿富汗基地恐怖分子,本-拉登是不是也应该向美国要求保护这些恐怖分子的人权呢?
最初由 陆海 发布:
This is a serious issue.
就目前看到的消息,这是一个全部是涉及法律根本的问题。不管这玉江山或塞利尔是干什么的、他有多么严重地触犯什么法律,现在中加争拗的关键是他是哪国公民。
这原本看起来应该是一个很清晰的定义。中华人民共和国国籍法第九条:“定居外国的中国公民,自愿加入或取得外国国籍的,即自动丧失中国国籍。”玉江山或塞利尔是取得加拿大国籍的,因此他应被视为自动丧失中国国籍,为何中国外交部发言人仍宣称他是中国公民?从OMNI NEWS上听到中国外交部发言人的讲话,她所说的也是这几句话“玉山江是中国公民,《中加领事协定》不适用于此案。中国有关部门目前正依法对此案进行审理。”她并没有给出有效的法律论证那玉江山或塞利尔为何不是加拿大公民而是中国公民。
根据这篇报道,中国外交部部长助理何亚非说:“玉先生有自己的中文名字,而你们所说的名字是他在非法离开中国、进入加拿大以后才取的。”这与玉江山或塞利尔是哪国公民或其他任何事都没有关系。一个人不管他用什么名字,他还是那个人。就象李连杰叫Jet Li,他还是李连杰一样。
何亚非表示,中国在玉山江逃离中国后,就通过国际刑警发出红色通缉令,虽然他改换姓名,在加拿大取得了难民身份,但终归还是要受到法律审判。这与玉江山或塞利尔是否加国公民仍然没有关系。只要加国给予他加国公民身份并且没有剥夺,那么他就有加国国籍。而根据中国国籍法,只要他定居国外并取得外国国籍,他就不再拥有中国国籍、即,他就不再是中国公民。中国国籍法并没有说被发出红色通缉令的人或改换姓名或通过先取得难民再取得外国国籍的人仍保留中国国籍。
当然,从法理上来说,一国政府无权取消另一国政府发出的国籍或公民身份。否则中国可以在哈珀什么时候访问中国时宣布取消哈珀的加拿大国籍。
这里原不存在双重国籍的问题。根据有关中加协议,如果一个有加拿大国籍的人以合法中国护照进入中国,那么在中国会被视为中国公民,但玉江山或塞利尔并没有用中国护照进入中国,他是在乌兹别克被引渡到中国。从中看不到任何在法律上支持中国外交部发言人宣称他是中国公民的证据。
不管玉江山或塞利尔是多么坏、是干了什么违法勾当,法律必须是法律,法律必须是严肃的,不能因为什么方法方便而放弃法律的严肃性,否则法律依然只是纸上空话。如果玉江山或塞利尔是哪国公民都不能按法律来做,那么人们如何能够相信“中国有关部门目前正依法对此案进行审理”这“依法”两字。
正是从法律这一基本原则出发,我们可以预计加国不管是执政党还是反对党或在野党都会强烈反对中国政府否认玉江山或塞利尔加国公民身份的主张。加国人也许很害怕和反对恐怖分子,但他们更害怕是对法律的不尊重。
最初由 choice 发布:
中加争拗:塞利尔是否应受领事保护?
boycott chinese product for at least one months! china has huge trade deficit with Canada and US, if these two country cut trade ties with china, you can imagine the rest..., in another words, the rising of china is funded by western country, mainly North America and Europe
Great idea! I can imagine the rest: A lot of stores will be closed here. The common have no where to shop some daily used items. The rich fly to tropic contries for vacation leaving a lot of poor laid off. 🙂
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BCIT
2007-02-10 11:47
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最初由 choice 发布:
中加争拗:塞利尔是否应受领事保护?
boycott chinese product for at least one months! china has huge trade deficit with Canada and US, if these two country cut trade ties with china, you can imagine the rest..., in another words, the rising of china is funded by western country, mainly North America and Europe
醒醒。。。
中加争拗:塞利尔是否应受领事保护?