最初由 s2r2 发布：
I thought some just want to give a hard time to chinese government, 可是选了几个wrong targets, 走私犯, 贪污犯, 现在又来了个恐怖分子, 这"恐怖分子"可不光是中国定义的, 这是伟大的美利坚合乌合之众国在2001年以后定义, 以前叫人权活动分子, 或持不同政见者, 反正大家看到了, 不同的名词, 一个意思. 可是加拿大的媒体好象还用过时的字典来报道, 水平太低了.
加拿大法律实施的对象没有选择性。要真有选性就遭了。
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s2r2
2007-04-26 07:26
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I thought some just want to give a hard time to chinese government, 可是选了几个wrong targets, 走私犯, 贪污犯, 现在又来了个恐怖分子, 这"恐怖分子"可不光是中国定义的, 这是伟大的美利坚合乌合之众国在2001年以后定义, 以前叫人权活动分子, 或持不同政见者, 反正大家看到了, 不同的名词, 一个意思. 可是加拿大的媒体好象还用过时的字典来报道, 水平太低了.
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第二次握手
2007-04-25 20:12
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最初由 WTTO 发布：
回复：This is a serious issue.
我个人认为，中国应允许玉江山获得加国的领事服务，其实这并不影响对他的审判，因为从报道来看，庭审允许旁听，就说明这审判是透明的，因此中国在乌鲁木齐判一个加国公民和一个中国公民对审判结果来说又有什么区别呢？我能看到的区别是刑满获释以后（如果有那一天），留在中国和驱逐出境的区别。
Yeah
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haohaorenren
2007-02-13 10:45
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I agree with you seriously!
加拿大应该做的是：立即取消此人的加拿大国籍。
而不是去找中国的麻烦。。。
最初由 sunny2008 发布：
94年就被联合国高级难民署确认为难民了，那时他从监狱中出逃，咋没有国际通缉呢？
加拿大接收他为难民，没有错误吧？
国际通缉的是1955年出生在新疆卡什的名叫 Guler Dilaver。通缉令由吉尔吉斯斯坦总检查长在2001年1月发出，2002年8月13日上了国际刑警（Interpol）通缉名单上。Celil在加拿大的登记出生日期是1969年（加拿大的报纸上称他37岁）。乌芝别克斯坦认为Celil就是Guler Dilaver，详情见下面的英文报道：
In May, the Embassy of Uzbekistan in London responded to appeals from Amnesty International by releasing a statement saying fingerprints revealed that Celil had been arrested in May 1998 and his name was registered by the National Security Service of Kyrgyz Republic as Guler Dilaver.
"Mr Guler Dilaver (Huseyincan Celil) was born in 1955 in Kashgar, Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region of China and citizen of Turkey," the embassy said. "He was wanted by Kyrgyz law enforcement bodies for membership in terrorism groups, kidnapping, taking hostages and illegal weapon possession.
"The relevant authorities of Kyrgyzstan have also identified that the arrested was Guler Dilaver (Huseyincan Celil). According to information of Kyrgyz law enforcement bodies, Mr Dilaver (Celil) uses undercover names of Hussein Calil, born in 1968, or Calil Husan Siddikovich, born in 1970, or Huseyincan Celil, born in 1969.
"He had been on the Interpol wanted list since 13 August 2002. The warrant for his arrest was signed by the Prosecutor-General of Kyrgyz Republic in January 2001."
Kyrgyz authorities say Dilaver was involved in the 2000 murder of an Uighur community leader and an attack on a visiting official delegation from Xinjiang in Kyrgyzstan.
以上这段英文报道已有网友在51上posted，可见“看看玉山江都做过哪些“人权”活动？” http://www.51.ca/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=133595。
Celil的加拿大律师Chris McLeod否认了这一指控。他对多伦多星报说，Celil在那被指控犯罪的时候是生活在土尔其被联合国高级难民署管辖下。
真正情况似乎显得扑朔迷离。国际刑警通缉令（这里也叫“红色通缉令”）是由吉尔吉斯斯坦发出，但乌芝别克没有将被抓到的Celil（他们认为就是被吉尔吉斯斯坦通缉的Guler Dilaver）送到吉尔吉斯斯坦，而是送到中国。
找到更多消息关于Celil如何到加拿大和成为加拿大公民的.
以下消息来自维基百科(Wikipedia)。任何人可以在维基百科上创建条目和对内容进行编辑。如果有人不同意维基百科上的说法，可以登录进行编辑。
Celil 1994年在中国被捕，后逃出中国监狱通过吉尔吉斯斯坦到达土尔其。在土尔其被联合国高级难民署确认为难民。2001年加拿大政府作为难民接受了他，2005年他获得了加拿大公民身份。
Toronto Star 对这一过程也有报道。以下是相关报道。
标题：Harper's tough talk on China not a surprise
Nov 18, 2006 01:00 AM
Thomas Walkom
Morality in politics is two-edged. If enough people agree with the principled stand a politician makes, he is a hero. If they do not, he is a fool. This is the curious position in which Prime Minister Stephen Harper finds himself after his blunt (critics would say impolitic) criticisms of China for jailing a man from Burlington named Huseyincan Celil.
Celil was born and raised in the Xinjiang region of China. He's also a member of China's Uyghur minority, a Muslim Central Asian.
Friends call him a political activist. China calls him a terrorist. In the '90s, he was arrested and spent time in jail. His crime, according to his lawyer Chris MacLeod, was to illegally teach children the Uyghur language.
Using a false Turkish passport, he fled China for neighbouring Kyrgyzstan, eventually ending up in Turkey where he obtained United Nations status as a refugee.
In 2001, he came to Canada. Last year, he became a Canadian citizen. This spring, he travelled on his brand-new Canadian passport to Uzbekistan, also in Central Asia, to visit his in-laws.
There, he was arrested, on no particular charge, and extradited to China — where he was sentenced to 15 years in jail on charges of murder and terrorism. His family and friends say the charges are invented.
Human rights groups like Amnesty International say Celil's experiences match those of other Uyghurs who have suffered persecution for trying to exercise basic civil rights.
As Celil languished in jail, civil libertarians lambasted the Harper government for failing to press Beijing harder for his release.
So, this week, it seems, Harper did. He told Canadian reporters travelling with him to an economic summit in Vietnam that Canada values the freedom of its citizens more than it values trade. If that led China's President Hu Jintao to snub him at the summit (which appeared to be the case at the time), he said, then so be it.
"(Canadians) don't want us to sell that out to the almighty dollar," the Prime Minister said.
At one level, Harper's interest in a Uyghur from Burlington might seem odd. To many Canadians, the Conservatives are the party of the almighty dollar.
Certainly a lot of those with dollars think so. Harper's words have earned reprimands from many of his party's natural allies in the business world, who worry that anything other than the smoothest political relationship with Beijing could interfere with their plans to make scads of money from China.
Even Harper's home province isn't pleased. "This is a misstep by the prime minister," Alberta's Intergovernmental Affairs Minister Gary Mar told one newspaper, noting that Harper's comments might hurt the tourist trade.
Yet, in a more fundamental way Harper's position on the Celil case is consistent with his approach to all foreign relations. Even before becoming Conservative leader, he talked of the need to reintroduce morality into foreign affairs.
"The emerging debates on foreign affairs should be fought on moral grounds," he wrote in 2003. "Modern liberals ... are trapped in their framework of moral neutrality, moral relativism and moral equivalence. But conservatives should have answers."
Those particular lines were written to justify Harper's belief, written around the time of the invasion of Iraq, that Canada should hew rigorously to the position of U.S. President George W. Bush as he tried to remake the Middle East.
In hindsight, they also signalled his current unbending position on Canada's involvement in Afghanistan. As Harper wrote then, morality in foreign affairs demands that countries choose sides, support their allies to the end and put real military force behind that commitment.
All of which is to say that those who applaud the Prime Minister's unwillingness to sacrifice a Canadian from Burlington for trade must understand that this stubborn sensibility defines his approach to just about everything in the realm of foreign affairs — from the Israeli invasion of Lebanon to Canada's relationship with the U.S.
To Harper, countries that share Canada's moral principles, such as Israel and the U.S., deserve unconditional support. Those that do not — like China —must be treated with suspicion. Is this laudable? In Celil's case, the answer is surely yes. Harper is supporting a Canadian citizen who was, in effect, kidnapped abroad.
Still, it would be interesting to know what Harper would have done had Uzbekistan extradited alleged terrorist Celil not to China but to the U.S. prison camp at Guantánamo Bay. Which of his principles would have held then?
http://www.thestar.com/article/154148
最初由 Sedona 发布：
回复：这里面有个问题：加拿大为什么给予一个被国际通缉的有恐怖分子嫌疑的人加拿大国籍？
Your question is easier, so let me answer.
A criminal record may not be a necessary condition for immigration and citizenship. Canada will compare apples with apples. Some criminal records in other countries may not be a barrier at all. There are too many different scenarios, so I won't list them all here.
In refugee claim, a criminal record overseas sometimes may become an evidence to support the claim. The classic example is the students of June 4. Most of them have gone to USA, Canada, Australia and European countries. Their criminal records were evidence that a corrpt government persecuted and tortured them.
In this case, we don't know the details, so it is difficult to comment. It seems this guy got the refugee status by false pretendence, i.e. using another name and identity. However, none of us know the specifics.
不一样的,政治难民,可以说政治迫害等,但是刑事犯罪,杀人,被国际通缉了,还可以入加拿大籍? 还能做加拿大的好公民?
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WTTO
2007-02-11 09:45
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最初由 choice 发布：
yes and no.
yes in canada, I'm a canadian citizen, I'll be counted if i cast the vote
no in that country, despite i was educated and above 18 years old, i never had the chance to vote and never being counted, although the right is stated in the law and constitution, it's just a joke
some folks are not happy, but was born in that country should not prevent us from identifying the principle facts.
I respect your persistiveness though you have little enfluence on China. Stephen Harper has little as well.
Do what ever you can to prevent the country (or the government if you prefer) from getting stronger. Good luck!
😁
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探头
2007-02-11 09:43
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最初由 choice 发布：
回复：一个以伪造身份而获得的国籍，为什么不取消它？
I agree with the first part of your statement, i have to say you might be smart, but the guy on the other side of the table is not stupid, as you might know, china is enjoying large number of trade surplus with US and canada, and using trade to gain political advantage, to deflect its notorious human records, continuing the trade is hurting canada and benefitting china, that's why we see china is getting stronger
So you're telling US is going to boycott Chinese products for the sake of Canada. Last time I checked Canada was not a state of the US yet 😀
Keep on dreaming. I sincerely believe Canada should to beg to his big brother if it really want to make any progress in this guy's case. Waving economical stick, however hard and sincerely, by Canada (admittedly a great county but not powerfully enough, sorry guys, have to tell you the truth), will achieve nothing.
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探头
2007-02-11 09:16
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最初由 choice 发布：
definitely, that country is losing my respect, but i see many people are defending whatever it is doing, and you guess what, those people came to north america and take advantage of people's tolerance and good social and legal system. we are seeing basic human rights of a canadian are denied in that country and this bunch of people are making the argument out of the country, because they want to put their own safety and opportunities in the first place, if they were in that country, they would be executed like a dog in the similar situations. people might argue there are lots of laws in that country too, but I would say they are all gimmicks, those laws are under absolute control of the ruling party, they are not the same thing as the law in democracy country
Make an oath. Never associate yourself with this barbarian country in any means. For example, never visit that country in case you be executed like a dog instead of living with dignity in your own country. Never buy anything produced in/by that country. And most importantly never marry yourself any your child to a Chinese. Make the oath and abide by it.
What a big loss that China has lost your precious respect. They are going to regret that. Seriously 😀
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Sedona
2007-02-11 08:41
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最初由 choice 发布：
definitely, that country is losing my respect, but i see many people are defending whatever it is doing, and you guess what, those people came to north america and take advantage of people's tolerance and good social and legal system. we are seeing basic human rights of a canadian are denied in that country and this bunch of people are making the argument out of the country, because they want to put their own safety and opportunities in the first place, if they were in that country, they would be executed like a dog in the similar situations. people might argue there are lots of laws in that country too, but I would say they are all gimmicks, those laws are under absolute control of the ruling party, they are not the same thing as the law in democracy country
I agree with you re: argument above.
However, a poor human rights record does not mean China does not have jurisdiction, which is based on international laws, not human rights.
If you don't like their system, stay away from China, and never go back there.
Also, stay away from lots of country in the world having a similar legal system like China's, e.g. Mexico, most countries in South and Central America, most in Africa, most Muslim countries and ......
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Sedona
2007-02-11 08:35
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I don't understand.
Though we all speculate this guy obtained refugee status by fake document and I am quite convinced he did, but nobody except himself can tell the truth. The poor Canadian government does not know.
For example, if a refugee claimant submitted a set of IDs issued by the government in Fujian, the IRB officer can guarantee the IDs are fake, but he is not in the position to prove it. He must contact the Chinese consulate office for help and the consul will send the fake documents back to Fujian. The outcome is the same corrupt government in fujian will verify the documents are real.
Chinese and corrupt Chinese government are the culprit while the Canadian government is the victim.
We have to think why Chinese always use fake documents, instead of blaming the Canadian government not doing the job.
中加争拗：塞利尔是否应受领事保护？