中加争拗：塞利尔是否应受领事保护？

最初由 Sedona 发布： 回复：中国确实从与美国和加拿大的贸易中获利。 北山, I always disagree with you but your analysis above is excellent. My additional 2 cents is in international trade, we can't tell which part is China's or Canada's. Quite a number of Canadian companies invest in China and ship the products back to Canada. Is that China's or Canada's? If Canada clashes with US and decides to terminate all trades, what happen to our automobile industry? Ontario produces more GM, Ford and Chrysler cars than Michigan. Are these cars American cars or Canadian cars. Harper is such an idiot to threaten China with international trade. A high school student won't make such a mistake. In regard to refugee claim, my expertise is refugee claim for unaccompanied minors, so may not be very relevant. In accordance with the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, any asylum seeker may approach a CBSA officer to claim refugee status, and the officer has to take all information according to the face value. If the claimant says he is from China and is 14, the officer has to trust him. No proof of ID is required at this stage and an acknowledgement will be issued so that he can find a job, apply for welfare and get a social insurance number (digit 9). The case will be referred to the Immigration and Refugee Board, after the submission of the PIF (Personal Information Form), a self-reported form with all self-reported non-verified information. The claimant, however, before status granted usually a few years later, must provide some sorts of identification to prove who he is. In some countries like Congo, ID is impossible, so the claimant can do a statutory declaration that it is impossible for him to obtain an ID. For Chinese refugee claimant, the Chinese government won't cooperate to issue any identity verification. There are 3 options: a statutory declaration, having relatives to send him existing documents from China or buying fake documents. I know in Fujian, fake documents verified by the local corrupt city government costs USD6,000 to USD$10,000. Lots of illegal refugee claimants from China rely on the "service". This is all underground. Nobody can prove it, but it does exist.

最初由 fordtaurus 发布： 我根本不care，他最好给墙壁了，否则回加拿大还得我们纳税人养着，tnnd，加拿大老是这样无聊的话，老子到美国去了 加拿大在保护自己公民的时候不如美国得力，最好是跑美国去，取得美国国籍。

我根本不care，他最好给墙壁了，否则回加拿大还得我们纳税人养着，tnnd，加拿大老是这样无聊的话，老子到美国去了

这个案子很简单，中国有权审，加拿大有权过问。中国审的是加拿大公民在中国犯罪事实，加拿大对自己的公民在外国犯罪，有外交过问的义务。 再往前推，关于此人的身份问题，如果在申请公民身份前，已经被中国政府作为刑事犯通缉，加拿大无权签发公民身份。如果是政治犯，作为难民身份，加拿大基于人道考量，可以签发公民身份。 如果签发加拿大身份合乎规范，按照中国法律，自动丧失中国国籍，只具有加拿大国籍。中国政府对身份国籍的管辖权到此自动丧失，否则就是越位了。 外国人在中国犯罪照样逮捕法办，丝毫不要手软，该枪毙的也不要客气。但承认人家的身份，不影响案件的审理。

最初由 sunny2008 发布： 广东开平银行的那个罪犯是美国（还是加拿大？我记不清）将他送回去了，我印象中是国际刑警在通缉他，这边承认他是罪犯。 有案底的人这边一般是不会收的，除非不报案或者有人帮助洗清。 余振东,开平银行副行长,出逃后,中国公安部即通过国际刑警组织发出"红色通缉令".后余在美国被捕,中国警方向美方提供了余犯罪证据,被美以欺诈罪判144月监禁.中方又与余犯罪地的美,加,港警方召开三国四方会议,令余最后放弃上述,认了罪,由美国引渡回中国.

等中国政府把他毙了，估计这个争论也就告一段落了。也不用大家在这里争了。中国政府已经不错了，还公开审理。暗地里处置了，谁知道呢？中国政府要那样做，有几个人敢说出什么话来。更别说知道了。那加拿大政府连出面争论的机会都不存在了。如果大家不做坏事，在那里待着都问题不大。法律建立在违法的基础上，简单一个例子，如果不逃税，很多小生意谁还会做的那么辛苦？法制社会并不是最完美的社会。

最初由 WTTO 发布： 如果加国政府在对待 Mr. Arrar 的事件中有对玉山江那样的努力，纳税人也就不会掏出1000多万加元做赔偿了。 😁 这个比较很有意思. 从这个角度看, 保守党政府是在显示它与自由党的不同: 最后是做show呢还是它的真正底线呢? 有待观察.

如果加国政府在对待 Mr. Arrar 的事件中有对玉山江那样的努力，纳税人也就不会掏出1000多万加元做赔偿了。 😁

最初由 Sedona 发布： Steven Harper A few words of disappointment about our no brainer prime minster Steven Harper. He threatens China with our trade with them. No high school graduates will make such a mistake. Ever since I moved to Canada, we have had international conflicts with Denmark (over the waterways in the Arctic), Spain (over cod fish), with Mexico (over Canadians' safety and free trade) and with USA (too many to list). If we threaten to cut off the trade relationship with these countries, image what will happen to Canada. International conflicts happen everyday but no mature leaders of any country will threaten it will international trade. It doesn't happen between China and Japan, for example. Also, such a strategy is premature, rough, unskillful and intrusive. If China ignores such a threat, what is the next card Harper is going to use? Terminate the relationship with China? The international trade is the last few cards, not the first one. If I give the Harper government my vote next time, I am the no brainer. According to the news, Steven Harper was to reply a warning from a Chinese official, He Yafei, by saying "I would point out today to any Chinese official, just as a matter of fact, that China has a huge trade surplus with this country. So I think it would be in the interests of the Chinese government to ensure that any dealings with Canada on trade are absolutely fair and above board." He Yafei, assistant minister of China's foreign affairs for North America, said that trade and investment between China and Canada was not as strong as it should be because of a lack of mutual policatical trust... and China's economic relationship with Canada "goes hand in hand" with the political relationship. He said this a day earlier in Ottawa. It seems that Steven Harper didn't want to tie economic relations with political issues.

最初由 choice 发布： 回复：一个以伪造身份而获得的国籍，为什么不取消它？ but i know for sure that large number of people from a country in East Asian obtained legal residential status in US and canada using fake document, shall we cancel the legal status of these people as a whole? Yes for sure. By law.

最初由 慢步当车 发布： 回复：回复：幼稚之说 如果玉江山以玉江山的身份申请居留和公民，按照现行中国国籍法，玉就自动丧失中国国籍。不过这个玉江山只有一个中国国籍，有加拿大国籍的那个叫Celil，因此玉江山并没有自动丧失中国国籍，要按中国公民的身份受审。这是他自作孽不可活。如果加拿大能证明此Celil就是那个玉江山，那么他取得加拿大身份有有欺骗行为，而靠着欺骗行为取得的加拿大身份也应该被宣布无效，加拿大政府应该向公众道歉并检讨审批居留权和公民权程序中的漏洞。 由于玉江山使用其他名字取得加拿大身份，因此玉江山这个人的中国国籍没有丧失，根据中国法律，他既然有中国国籍，那么就不可能有其他国家的有效国籍。 当然，如果直到他取得公民的时候，他一直使用玉江山的名字，在当了公民之后才改名叫Celil，那么就中国国籍法来说，他自动丧失中国国籍。 从最后一点来说，应该是中国国籍法中的一个漏洞。该修补一下了。 看了这个贴子我才明白过来为什么有人会如此执拗于他叫玉山江还是Celil. 当然楼上的贴子只是一种说法. 中国外交部发言人说的他叫玉山江还是Celil的理由可能还不同, 因为外交部不至于给出这么一个证明这个人是中国公民不是加拿大公民的理由. 就我知道有很多中国人在拿到加拿大护照前已正式改用了英文名字(比如驾照), 并用那英文名字申请了加拿大公民身份. 这是否意味着这些人根据中国法律仍具有中国公民身份?

广东开平银行的那个罪犯是美国（还是加拿大？我记不清）将他送回去了，我印象中是国际刑警在通缉他，这边承认他是罪犯。 有案底的人这边一般是不会收的，除非不报案或者有人帮助洗清。

最初由 sunny2008 发布： 加拿大不是犯罪分子的天堂，也不是国际恐怖分子的避难场所，加拿大有自己的一套办事程序，我相信很多事情的发生是有人得以钻了空子，它绝不会是国家的行为。 另外我想问一句赖昌星案件有没有报国际刑警通缉他？

最初由 51北山 发布： 中国确实从与美国和加拿大的贸易中获利。 问题是，在中国获利的同时，对美国和加拿大有没有好处？答案应该是肯定的。continuing the trade is not hurting but benefitting canada, too. 还有，中国在变得强大，其中有一部分就是从加拿大获得的利益。没错。 可是，你能阻挡中国走向强大的步伐吗？靠终止中加贸易？显然不能。不仅不能，反而会损害加拿大的利益。 中国过去是不讲人权的国家。连“人权”这个词都是翻译成汉语的。 但是，中国的人权状况一直在取得进步，也是事实。 美国立国后很长时间内存在奴隶制、种族歧视、性别歧视，加拿大有过种族歧视，各国的人权状况都是在逐渐进步的。应该认识到中国也在逐渐进步。 至于难民和公民申请中的欺骗问题，SEDONA能不能给我们多介绍一点？ 北山, I always disagree with you but your analysis above is excellent. My additional 2 cents is in international trade, we can't tell which part is China's or Canada's. Quite a number of Canadian companies invest in China and ship the products back to Canada. Is that China's or Canada's? If Canada clashes with US and decides to terminate all trades, what happen to our automobile industry? Ontario produces more GM, Ford and Chrysler cars than Michigan. Are these cars American cars or Canadian cars. Harper is such an idiot to threaten China with international trade. A high school student won't make such a mistake. In regard to refugee claim, my expertise is refugee claim for unaccompanied minors, so may not be very relevant. In accordance with the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, any asylum seeker may approach a CBSA officer to claim refugee status, and the officer has to take all information according to the face value. If the claimant says he is from China and is 14, the officer has to trust him. No proof of ID is required at this stage and an acknowledgement will be issued so that he can find a job, apply for welfare and get a social insurance number (digit 9). The case will be referred to the Immigration and Refugee Board, after the submission of the PIF (Personal Information Form), a self-reported form with all self-reported non-verified information. The claimant, however, before status granted usually a few years later, must provide some sorts of identification to prove who he is. In some countries like Congo, ID is impossible, so the claimant can do a statutory declaration that it is impossible for him to obtain an ID. For Chinese refugee claimant, the Chinese government won't cooperate to issue any identity verification. There are 3 options: a statutory declaration, having relatives to send him existing documents from China or buying fake documents. I know in Fujian, fake documents verified by the local corrupt city government costs USD6,000 to USD$10,000. Lots of illegal refugee claimants from China rely on the "service". This is all underground. Nobody can prove it, but it does exist.

首先外国公民在国外触犯外国法律，并不是100%要由外国法庭审判的。譬如，拥有外交豁免的外交官、出访的外国首脑、联合国的高级职员等等，外国法庭和法律，对他们不适用。 其次，中国审判的是玉山江，而不是塞利尔；中国依照国际通缉令从国外引渡的也是玉山江，而不是塞利尔。你认为，这是问题吗？难道你掰着脚趾头也数不过来! 加拿大法律与中国法律是有很大差别的，硬要用加拿大法律套到中国的头上，那是瞎掰！ 最初由 陆海 发布： 回复：还是幼稚。 你叫我怎么说你Doggy？中国要审判他在中国犯下的罪行跟他是不是中国公民是哪国公民都没有关系。任何一国公民在中国触犯法律都受中国法律管辖。外国公民和中国公民在中国的法律管辖范围内是平等一样的，没有法律说外国公民有豁免权。同样要注意，加拿大政府并没有要中国政府停止对玉山江的法律审理，而是要按照他是加拿大公民通知加拿大使馆。 你说：你不能因为他后来得到加拿大的难民身份，就否认他得到难民身份前、居住在中国、是中国公民的事实，也不能否认中国政府和法律有权审判他作为中国公民时所犯下的恐怖罪行。我在这里完全没有否认他曾是中国公民，我想也没有其他人否认这一点。同样大家都同意“中国政府和法律有权审判他作为中国公民时所犯下的恐怖罪行”。但现在的争论是他现在是否是加国公民，他现在是中国公民吗。 当然，你的意思也可能是说如果一个中国公民在中国犯罪后潜逃在被抓到时他已经是外国公民，中国有法律认定在法庭中该罪犯的国籍身份应是中国而不是那外国，即，中国国籍法在此时失效。那么中国哪一个法律有此规定？这潜逃多久不算失效或是无时效限制？ 当然，按您的意思，玉山江是人渣，他不适用于任何法律。那就与法律无关，当然也不用按什么法律审判。这样就不幼稚了。 最后, 看看还是问的水平比你高: 问这玉江山的加拿大国籍有效吗?

问题是，在中国获利的同时，对美国和加拿大有没有好处？答案应该是肯定的。continuing the trade is not hurting but benefiting canada, too. 还有，中国在变得强大，其中有一部分就是由于从加拿大获得的利益。没错，尽管比例很小。 可是，你能阻挡中国走向强大的步伐吗？靠终止中加贸易？显然不能。不仅不能，反而会严重损害加拿大的利益。 中国过去是不讲人权的国家。连“人权”这个词都是翻译成汉语的。 但是，中国的人权状况一直在取得进步，也是事实。 美国立国后很长时间内存在奴隶制、种族歧视、性别歧视，加拿大有过种族歧视，各国的人权状况都是在逐渐进步的。应该认识到中国也在逐渐进步。 最初由 choice 发布： 回复：一个以伪造身份而获得的国籍，为什么不取消它？ I agree with the first part of your statement, i have to say you might be smart, but the guy on the other side of the table is not stupid, as you might know, china is enjoying large number of trade surplus with US and canada, and using trade to gain political advantage, to deflect its notorious human records, continuing the trade is hurting canada and benefitting china, that's why we see china is getting stronger and by the way, I haven't heard canada govern saying it's cheated by the refugee. but i know for sure that large number of people from a country in East Asian obtained legal residential status in US and canada using fake document, shall we cancel the legal status of these people as a whole? 至于难民和公民申请中的欺骗问题，SEDONA能不能给我们多介绍一点？

最初由 51北山 发布： 一个以伪造身份而获得的国籍，为什么不取消它？ 此人在申请难民和公民的过程中蓄意欺骗加拿大政府， 这跟中国有多长的list of bad human records有什么关系？ 至于经贸往来，是双方互利，绝不仅仅是一个国家获利。 cut trade ties是一柄双刃剑，伤害对方，也伤害自己，头脑清醒的国家领导者不会做这样的事情。 I agree with the first part of your statement, i have to say you might be smart, but the guy on the other side of the table is not stupid, as you might know, china is enjoying large number of trade surplus with US and canada, and using trade to gain political advantage, to deflect its notorious human records, continuing the trade is hurting canada and benefitting china, that's why we see china is getting stronger and by the way, I haven't heard canada govern saying it's cheated by the refugee. but i know for sure that large number of people from a country in East Asian obtained legal residential status in US and canada using fake document, shall we cancel the legal status of these people as a whole?

加拿大不是犯罪分子的天堂，也不是国际恐怖分子的避难场所，加拿大有自己的一套办事程序，我相信很多事情的发生是有人得以钻了空子，它绝不会是国家的行为。 另外我想问一句赖昌星案件有没有报国际刑警通缉他？

最初由 51北山 发布： 而且中国专门派员来加拿大详细说明（必定也将犯罪情况通报了） 中国可以说是有礼有节了。 加拿大媒体不分青红皂白，一通炒作，害得普通人都以为中国不尊重法律。 我们51的网友也跟着嚷嚷，还说要抵制中国产品？ 笑话。。。 You are right. I am glad the Chinese officials finally have learned some diplomacy skills. In the past week, the Chinese officials are more skillful than the Canadians.

事实应该是这样，这个玉江山既然逃往加拿大，就应该本分的待在这，该工作工作，该当加拿大人当加拿大人，而不应该再回到乌兹别克这样的是非之地去，这样的行为简直就是司马昭之心路人皆知，不知以上几位网友有没有调查一下此君是否搭乘加拿大直飞乌兹别克的飞机，还是转经别国（如果这样为什么没有被其它国家引渡），还有是抵达机场马上被捕，还是联络了无数道上的兄弟吸引了警方眼球被捕，这个想象的过程虽然没有根据，但却反映了一个事实，加拿大政客们在借口中国人权有问题的时候，并没有事实上展开调查，他们批准入籍的人到底是否够格，这种伎俩并不高明，因为这正是分散大家对政府反华行为不满的一种视线分散。

国家授予权力给律师，国家相信律师的话。 国家也相信医生，工程师，议员等，你入籍什么的，请他们签字证明你的身份是真实的，国家就承认，至于他们会不会帮助你作假，那是你们私下商量的事情，一般人是不会作的，他们早年学习和考取牌照时考过职业的操守。 作无良的事情会吊销牌照的,国家利益受损理应受到惩罚。

这么说呢，律师该死，罪犯该活。

新疆，西藏对加拿大都是一样的，是不是中国领土是不重要的，但作为我个人而言，这还是一个值得关心的问题，至少我还是知道在所有政治力量里面，现在的共产党还的确代表了真正的中国。

最初由 kmtaotao 发布： 好好好 好好好，今后任何一个国家的囚犯都可以越狱来到加拿大，然后堂而皇之的取得加拿大公民身份，然后再回到原来犯罪的地方继续犯罪，被抓了还可以叫哈伯过去吠几声，浪费我们这帮纳税人的钱。 取得加国公民身份也不是那么容易的，那无犯罪记录卡的你甚至连入境条件都不具备，不过呢有些律师是有技巧做的你任何犯罪记录都没，我想这不是国家行为，是律师的个人行为，无良的律师国家会处理的。

哦，是这样，那为什么他被引渡了呢

怪不得现在加拿大犯罪率持续上升，就是因为这是罪犯的天堂啊。

最初由 kmtaotao 发布： 好好好 好好好，今后任何一个国家的囚犯都可以越狱来到加拿大，然后堂而皇之的取得加拿大公民身份，然后再回到原来犯罪的地方继续犯罪，被抓了还可以叫哈伯过去吠几声，浪费我们这帮纳税人的钱。

好好好，今后任何一个国家的囚犯都可以越狱来到加拿大，然后堂而皇之的取得加拿大公民身份，然后再回到原来犯罪的地方继续犯罪，被抓了还可以叫哈伯过去吠几声，浪费我们这帮纳税人的钱。

最初由 choice 发布： 回复：加拿大应该做的是：立即取消此人的加拿大国籍。 no way, as long as he is holding canadian passport, whether his citizenship is valid or not is not in the jurisdiction of chinese. china has a long list of bad human records and always use trade as a political card. as china is having huge trade surplus with canada, if we cut those trade ties, some dollar stores which flooded with cheap, low quality chinese goods might be forced to close, but I see canada's trade dificit with china might actually decrease, if US is doing the same thing, the rising of china will remain just a dream forever. Sounds like you are smarter than the majority of north American political leaders. Have you ever think why don't they do things same as you said? Are their choices smart or stupid ? And yours?

此人在申请难民和公民的过程中蓄意欺骗加拿大政府， 这跟中国有多长的list of bad human records有什么关系？ 最初由 choice 发布： 回复：加拿大应该做的是：立即取消此人的加拿大国籍。 no way, as long as he is holding canadian passport, whether his citizenship is valid or not is not in the jurisdiction of chinese. china has a long list of bad human records and always use trade as a political card. as china is having huge trade surplus with canada, if we cut those trade ties, some dollar stores which flooded with cheap, low quality chinese goods might be forced to close, but I see canada's trade dificit with china might actually decrease, if US is doing the same thing, the rising of china will remain just a dream forever. 至于经贸往来，是双方互利，绝不仅仅是一个国家获利。 cut trade ties是一柄双刃剑，伤害对方，也伤害自己，头脑清醒的国家领导者不会做这样的事情。